Curse

Lorekeeper · Apr 11, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I agree that pug builds should exist. But while things like R/D pugs exist, balanced pugs dont stand a chance unless they are guild teams or friendlist teams (which is why low ranked pugs play shitway gimmicks). The meta, whether it is HA or GvG, should always use the balanced build as the benchmark for the pug build because it allows the pug and non-pug meta to diversify. Sway doesnt need balancing because its unbeatable, nor does it not need balancing because it is beatable.

People will move back to RaO shitway if Escape shitway gets nerfed, but in all honesty that build got nerfed so strongly that balanced meta could still diversify somewhat. A blanket nerf of RaO shitway really isnt to be expected. Lesser of two evils argument comes to my mind.

apoggy · Apr 11, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

But while things like R/D pugs exist, balanced pugs dont stand a chance unless they are guild teams or friendlist teams (which is why low ranked pugs play shitway gimmicks)

This is a sad truth. I normally just stick to guild groups, but yesterday was bored and tried to pug early in the afternoon (GMT). The only groups forming were R10+ balanced or r9> Sway groups (and yes r9 Sways).

Later on in the evening, especially once the Americans get on it is generally easier to find a lower ranked non-sway group.

I am all in favour of there being a dominate pugging group, without them a lot of HAers wouldnt bother spending up to an hour putting a balanced collective together, I just find it sad when the pug meta seems to make up 80% of groups that form.

zling · Apr 11, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

some changes like Escape will completely destroy the skill, it would be no different from dodge, just little shorter duration and recharge :S and rend which becomes like strip but with potential health lost instead of health gain :S
some of the ideas here are nice, others are way off. also is this meant to change in every area or just special function change while in HA only?

DreamWind · Apr 11, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoggy

2 copies of Mend Body and Soul (non-Elite RC with unconditional heal in Sway) + Recuperation + Recovery > Condition Degen Build

Edit: forgot to add Sways are now starting to carry Pure Was Li Ming as well, gg.

Theoretically yes, but condition pressure build should easily be able to shutdown the necros...and spirits die in about .5 seconds. I honestly think Sway is the easiest pug gimmick to beat I've ever seen, and that is why I don't mind it particularly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I agree that pug builds should exist. But while things like R/D pugs exist, balanced pugs dont stand a chance unless they are guild teams or friendlist teams (which is why low ranked pugs play shitway gimmicks). The meta, whether it is HA or GvG, should always use the balanced build as the benchmark for the pug build because it allows the pug and non-pug meta to diversify. Sway doesnt need balancing because its unbeatable, nor does it not need balancing because it is beatable.

I see your points. I'm not convinced pug balanced had much chance to begin with though, so I don't think balanced will ever be the HA meta.

This is a tough situation, because HA already has a dwindling player base, and nerfing pug builds doesn't neccessarily lead to a new pug build rising. It often leads to a playerbase decline. Even though I don't particularly like Sway, I like that it has brought a lot of pugs into the districts playing HA.

I think another important factor in the HA meta is the vent factor. I'm guessing most sway teams aren't using vent (since the build is so easy to play), and that saves more time for them. Any form of balanced build and it is required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoggy

I am all in favour of there being a dominate pugging group, without them a lot of HAers wouldnt bother spending up to an hour putting a balanced collective together, I just find it sad when the pug meta seems to make up 80% of groups that form.

I think this is just a testament to how much people just want to play. Forming anything else takes a lot of time, and people may not have that time.

Ciric · Apr 11, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortugan

I heavily disagree with Shattering Assault, since it isn't overpowered in any way. ok it deals 15-45 or so extra damage, but you mustn't forget that it's not armor ignoring and thus deals less damage with higher armor. furthermore you shouldn't forget the energy price is already pretty high, so changing the recharge to 6 seconds won't change anything, it's fine at 4.

I agree, you will be able to spam it, but you'll have to sacrifice a skill slot in order to be able to get the necessary energy in 4 seconds to be able to spam the chain, upping the chain to 6 seconds only gives you 6 seconds to do that.

The skill is fine as it is, it's not getting overused nor is it amazingly overpowered.

I now remember why i don't post on Guru, you guys realy need to go back to pve, learn the game mechanics before you post atleast, damage from attack skills (the +XXdamage) is armor ignorning, its only damage from the weapon that is effected by armor

Quote:

I never said, when it is a spell you don't have to touch. I mean: spell+touch, so it is "easier" to counter with interupts.

why does black out need be be countered? last time i looked it was only my balance and a handfull of other balanced that are smart enough NOT to run PD that run blackout on a p-block mes, yes pblock+blackout is devistating, but when that happens if you make haste the right targets and your players know how to kite then you can still live threw it. Also blackout takes skill to use, a miss use can mean u miss key interupts, miss spikes, ect ect ect.. its only good when used right, why nerf it?

mendbody... LOL, its so far from a non-elite RC, its a very conditional condition removal with a much smaller heal then most RCs will give you. nerf mendbody? nty (wow you kids are bad at GW)

Please learn the basic concepts behind this game before you post/think about skill updates.

Kyp Jade · Apr 11, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

removal isnt so conditional in sway builds, which just so happen to have every spirit in the game on the ground.

Killed u man · Apr 11, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

I now remember why i don't post on Guru, you guys realy need to go back to pve, learn the game mechanics before you post atleast, damage from attack skills (the +XXdamage) is armor ignorning, its only damage from the weapon that is effected by armor

Shattering Assault is BASE DAMAGE, not +XXdamage... So both of you were wrong... Shattering Assault is a very strange skill, and I doubt you can find the correct info on wiki, but I'm pretty sure it's glitched. The damage from Shattering Assault, as I said, acts like BASE damage, but does NOT get affected by the +20% from customization. Yet other skills do affect it, often in a bizar way. I've been hit for 2 different numbers by 1 Shattering Assault, yet it is a set ammount of base damage, in other words it should always hit for the same damage. So a Shattering Assault at 14 should hit for 47 base damage. This is roughly 10-20 damage more than the crit on a scythe.
From the discription however, one would think it did actual armor ignoring damage. In other words, a Shattering Assault SHOULD hit for 47 x2 a 14, but I think it does around 100 each hit on 14.
Saying it's energy intense is saying you don't know the game. Critical Eye + Zealous Weapon, 14 Dag, 13 Crit means you will get 5 Energy back everytime you Crit. (Which is going to be >50% with those att's) Shattering Assault in other words will give it's full energy cost back most of the time.
There is 2 reasons why that build doesn't get used often:
-Lack of utility (IAS, but it's enough pressure without, ...)
-Stale HA and GvG mentality

This build can EASILY be abused to, and has the potential to be the next button bash build after Sway gets it up the A. More specificly I'm referring to this build:
A/Me: 14 Dagger, 13 Crit, 3 Dom
-Golden Fox Strike
-Wild Strike
-Shattering Assault
-Assassin's Remedy
-Hex Breaker
-Dash

This leaves room for 1 free skill within A or Me attribute lines (AT the cost you can't spec into them, but there is enough skills that don't need speccing, e.g. cry of frustration)
You're immune to blind (Unless in heavy condition builds, which you don't see in HA) AND snares. The intire combo is unblockable and roughly does about 250-400 Dmg each chain. (Making it the perfect imba button bash build) Wait, did I forgot to mention it also removes 2 enchants? The recharge of every the intire chain is 4 seconds, in other words you can chain the chain ^^

When (If) Sway gets nerfed (Like an ACTUAL nerf, like Zergway, no more thumpers or R/D's) this build ranks highest on my list of possible new gimmicks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

mendbody... LOL, its so far from a non-elite RC, its a very conditional condition removal with a much smaller heal then most RCs will give you. nerf mendbody? nty (wow you kids are bad at GW).

[QUOTE=Ciric]
It's VERY conditional? Spirits are conditional, but not that conditional. Worse even, they more often than not, leech of enemy spirits. (Favorable Winds)
Don't compare the healing power to RC. There is, in the current metagame, 3 often used conditions: Crippled, DW and Cracked Armor.
On average, it would be fair to say RC will remove 1-2 conditions 95% of the time when used (I remember the old days, Vim etc, when RC = red bar full) which roughly translates to a 60-120 Heal.
Mendbody on the other hand doesn't guarantee condition removal BUT it does guarantee a 90 Heal.
Mend Body is broken. It is the same Energy, CT and Recharge (Let's not fight about a second, shall we?) as RC. Is a bit lesser reliable but does guarantee the heal...

Mister_Abc · Apr 11, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

Please learn the basic concepts behind this game before you post/think about skill updates.

Read Shattering Assualt, it "deals x...x damage," NOT +x...x damage. The damage in fact, isn't armor ignoring and is affected by armor.

wuzzman · Apr 11, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

For info:
I made this post because I want more different builds in HA.

Now you see sway lego(modded) rspike sometimes hex.

What I want is more different builds, with other types of backlines. So that doesn't mean I want lego builds only, cause that will get allot of people bored.

So you get rid of sway, but made sure that legoway and rspike get past UW! Variety ftw.

Eurospike Flawless Victory

Horace The Great · Apr 11, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

So you get rid of sway, but made sure that legoway and rspike get past UW! Variety ftw.

I don't really get your point.

wuzzman · Apr 11, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

I don't really get your point.

EUROSPIKE FLAWLESS VICTORY

yakuza · Apr 11, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

wuzzman...second post wiht a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE erospike dingy

Ciric · Apr 12, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It's VERY conditional? Spirits are conditional, but not that conditional. Worse even, they more often than not, leech of enemy spirits. (Favorable Winds)
Don't compare the healing power to RC. There is, in the current metagame, 3 often used conditions: Crippled, DW and Cracked Armor.
On average, it would be fair to say RC will remove 1-2 conditions 95% of the time when used (I remember the old days, Vim etc, when RC = red bar full) which roughly translates to a 60-120 Heal.
Mendbody on the other hand doesn't guarantee condition removal BUT it does guarantee a 90 Heal.
Mend Body is broken. It is the same Energy, CT and Recharge (Let's not fight about a second, shall we?) as RC. Is a bit lesser reliable but does guarantee the heal...

spirits are pretty conditional, but condy removal or not it is a nice skill as you said. However, the healing is comparable to orison (when u add the divine favor bonus) and it has added condy removal that is conditional (how conditional doesn't matter tbh) Is it a good skill yes, is it IMBA, no. And lets remember that the prot line isn't supposed to be comparable to the healing line so when a prot has a big heal it should be elite.

miss read shattering, my bad, i apologize (what i said i was wrong no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing way)

anyway this topic is pretty fail and full of to many r3+ that think they know how to balance this game, so unless i get flamed, done posting in here, have fun arguing over balances that will never happen kiddies.

supa tim · Apr 13, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

[QUOTE=Killed u man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

It's VERY conditional? Spirits are conditional, but not that conditional. Worse even, they more often than not, leech of enemy spirits. (Favorable Winds)
Don't compare the healing power to RC. There is, in the current metagame, 3 often used conditions: Crippled, DW and Cracked Armor.
On average, it would be fair to say RC will remove 1-2 conditions 95% of the time when used (I remember the old days, Vim etc, when RC = red bar full) which roughly translates to a 60-120 Heal.
Mendbody on the other hand doesn't guarantee condition removal BUT it does guarantee a 90 Heal.
Mend Body is broken. It is the same Energy, CT and Recharge (Let's not fight about a second, shall we?) as RC. Is a bit lesser reliable but does guarantee the heal...

ITS 1 SECOND MORE OMG NOOB SKILL

joke

but have u ever thought about maps like forgotten shrines, relic runs etc. how are you gonna put up a spirit while running? No answer? Heres the answer: not!

you see youre gonna get raped by shit like legoway if u try to put up a spirit as healer while capping altar/running etc.

not to mention pve where theres no builds with 2000 spirits.

Kyp Jade · Apr 13, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Claim Resource: Is now a chant, must be in earshot of the center of the altar to use this skill.

shoogi · Apr 15, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

So you get rid of sway, but made sure that legoway and rspike get past UW! Variety ftw.

I personally prefer to see everyone running legoway if the alternative is everyone running spiritway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Claim Resource: Is now a chant, must be in earshot of the center of the altar to use this skill.

Be careful with that, we don't wanna see wells of silence all around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

Blackout: make it a spell.

I'm not sure how this is gonna interact with 40/40 sets and glyph of renewal, but if it will work then that would be overpowered.

edit- oh I forgot a very necessary fix...
Aura of Stability- This Enchantment now has a big and clearly visible animation, not as obvious as prot spirit or SoD but something that will be catched by a warrior about to shock the target.

Kyp Jade · Apr 15, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I just want to see the claim resource skill be fixed, and able to be interupted by the power interupts on mesmers.

Making it at least function like a chant would stop stupid stuff like the ghost capping when hes clearly not in range of the altar, ive both won, and lost matches because of that issue. Also it would probably help clean up the ghostlies pathing issues when hes blocked and IN RANGE of capping. I hate when hes in the middle of the steps and wont cap.

Mr Fizzle · Apr 15, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Do not nerf Rending Touch

I need to haxor's the guardian spam monk in gbg

Lorekeeper · Apr 16, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

skill balance this week? I wonder if Anet are bothered anymore.

wuzzman · Apr 17, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

well according to shoogi a degenerative build that looks like balance > a degenerative build that looks like iway